<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><!-- generator="wordpress/2.2" -->
<rss version="2.0" 
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/">
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Aza&#8217;adi Special: Jinnah&#8217;s Vision of Pakistan</title>
	<link>http://www.understandingpakistan.com/index.php/azaadi-special-jinnah-vision-of-pakistan-yasser-latif-hamdani/</link>
	<description>An Investigation into the Life and Times of a Nation</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 23:56:36 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2</generator>

	<item>
		<title>By: YLH</title>
		<link>http://www.understandingpakistan.com/index.php/azaadi-special-jinnah-vision-of-pakistan-yasser-latif-hamdani/#comment-1197</link>
		<author>YLH</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 09:26:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.understandingpakistan.com/index.php/azaadi-special-jinnah-vision-of-pakistan-yasser-latif-hamdani/#comment-1197</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;This comment has been slightly edited to comply with UPP’s commenting guidelines. -Ed.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The argument is and always has been very simple:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;a. Jinnah- the one time secular Indian nationalist- championed the cause of Muslim minority in United India. His struggle was for and on behalf of the Muslim people(s) who he termed a nation so that there may be a consociationalist solution at the centre. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;b. As a result of Jinnah's efforts,  Pakistan was created advertently or inadvertently... and Jinnah was opposed by all theocrats. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;c. Jinnah spoke consistently of a Pakistan where the state would be impartial to faith of the citizen, where minorities would have equal rights and where priests with a divine mission will not run the state. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Now that c. is what the contention is about.  Most people would say that this amounts to a secular state.  Jinnah himself knew - as a lawyer- that legally anything that is not theocratic is by default secular.  However... I for one have NEVER had any qualms with those who wish to call such a state Islamic.  But where the hell is such a state?  Atleast make it before you declare it secular or Islamic.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Now coming to your equally ignorant argument about the word secularism...  could you produce a single artefact from say the foundation documents of the United States which has the word "secular" or "secularism".  How about France?  Does the word secular or any french variant thereof appear in the original declaration?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The issue of secularism has always been a separation of Church and State- thus a secular state is:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;1. One without a clergy determining law of the state.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;2. One where the state is impartial to a person's faith. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;3. One where all citizens are equal before law.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;4. Sovereignty rests with the people. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Now...&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;1.  "In any event Pakistan is nto going to be a theocratic state to be run by priests with a divine mission".&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;2. "You may belong to any religion caste or creed- that has nothing to do with the business of the state" &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;3.  Numerous statements quoted in #1.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;4.  Read Jinnah's interview with Doon Campbell where he says sovereignty will rest unconditionally with the people.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Now all you can prove by Jinnah's references to Islamic ideals and Quran etc can only prove that Islam endorses above mentioned principles... but it cannot prove the opposite no matter how much you try.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The litmus test will be to show a single act or piece of legislation by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly that sought to Islamise the Constitution or Civil or criminal laws.... under Jinnah- who was a powerful civilian ruler. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Objectives Resolution- passed after Jinnah's death- marked a departure from these principles enunciated by Jinnah...  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Not only that it violated the basic principle on which you created Pakistan:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;B&gt;No permanent majority by sheer majority can dictate to a permanent minority&lt;/B&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Secular, religious or something else this was the only principle Pakistan was created on.   The objectives resolution was voted against by all Non-Muslims and one Muslim League Muslim as well.  Therein lies the irony of those who claim nonsense like you've done in your post.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Quaid-e-Azam Mahomed Ali Jinnah stood unequivocally for the kind of system which would be described in modern parlance as a secular democracy.  If it could be defined as an Islamic democracy as well just proves that Islamic democracy is a fancy term for Secular democracy.  Jinnah certainly thought his vision was compatible with Islam... &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The real question we should be asking is that whether Jinnah was right in proclaiming his essentially secular vision of the state as Islamic?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I think this article also argues the same&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This comment has been slightly edited to comply with UPP’s commenting guidelines. -Ed.</p>
</p>
<p>The argument is and always has been very simple:</p>
<p>a. Jinnah- the one time secular Indian nationalist- championed the cause of Muslim minority in United India. His struggle was for and on behalf of the Muslim people(s) who he termed a nation so that there may be a consociationalist solution at the centre. </p>
<p>b. As a result of Jinnah&#8217;s efforts,  Pakistan was created advertently or inadvertently&#8230; and Jinnah was opposed by all theocrats. </p>
<p>c. Jinnah spoke consistently of a Pakistan where the state would be impartial to faith of the citizen, where minorities would have equal rights and where priests with a divine mission will not run the state. </p>
<p>Now that c. is what the contention is about.  Most people would say that this amounts to a secular state.  Jinnah himself knew - as a lawyer- that legally anything that is not theocratic is by default secular.  However&#8230; I for one have NEVER had any qualms with those who wish to call such a state Islamic.  But where the hell is such a state?  Atleast make it before you declare it secular or Islamic.</p>
<p>Now coming to your equally ignorant argument about the word secularism&#8230;  could you produce a single artefact from say the foundation documents of the United States which has the word &#8220;secular&#8221; or &#8220;secularism&#8221;.  How about France?  Does the word secular or any french variant thereof appear in the original declaration?</p>
<p>The issue of secularism has always been a separation of Church and State- thus a secular state is:</p>
<p>1. One without a clergy determining law of the state.</p>
<p>2. One where the state is impartial to a person&#8217;s faith. </p>
<p>3. One where all citizens are equal before law.</p>
<p>4. Sovereignty rests with the people. </p>
<p>Now&#8230;</p>
<p>1.  &#8220;In any event Pakistan is nto going to be a theocratic state to be run by priests with a divine mission&#8221;.</p>
<p>2. &#8220;You may belong to any religion caste or creed- that has nothing to do with the business of the state&#8221; </p>
<p>3.  Numerous statements quoted in #1.</p>
<p>4.  Read Jinnah&#8217;s interview with Doon Campbell where he says sovereignty will rest unconditionally with the people.</p>
<p>Now all you can prove by Jinnah&#8217;s references to Islamic ideals and Quran etc can only prove that Islam endorses above mentioned principles&#8230; but it cannot prove the opposite no matter how much you try.</p>
<p>The litmus test will be to show a single act or piece of legislation by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly that sought to Islamise the Constitution or Civil or criminal laws&#8230;. under Jinnah- who was a powerful civilian ruler. </p>
<p>Objectives Resolution- passed after Jinnah&#8217;s death- marked a departure from these principles enunciated by Jinnah&#8230;  </p>
<p>Not only that it violated the basic principle on which you created Pakistan:</p>
<p><b>No permanent majority by sheer majority can dictate to a permanent minority</b> </p>
<p>Secular, religious or something else this was the only principle Pakistan was created on.   The objectives resolution was voted against by all Non-Muslims and one Muslim League Muslim as well.  Therein lies the irony of those who claim nonsense like you&#8217;ve done in your post.</p>
<p>Quaid-e-Azam Mahomed Ali Jinnah stood unequivocally for the kind of system which would be described in modern parlance as a secular democracy.  If it could be defined as an Islamic democracy as well just proves that Islamic democracy is a fancy term for Secular democracy.  Jinnah certainly thought his vision was compatible with Islam&#8230; </p>
<p>The real question we should be asking is that whether Jinnah was right in proclaiming his essentially secular vision of the state as Islamic?</p>
<p>I think this article also argues the same</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: YLH</title>
		<link>http://www.understandingpakistan.com/index.php/azaadi-special-jinnah-vision-of-pakistan-yasser-latif-hamdani/#comment-1194</link>
		<author>YLH</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 06:37:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.understandingpakistan.com/index.php/azaadi-special-jinnah-vision-of-pakistan-yasser-latif-hamdani/#comment-1194</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;This comment has been slightly edited to comply with UPP's commenting guidelines. -Ed. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Dear Atif, &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If you think the abovementioned vision is Islamic,  why not pursue it.  I have said so clearly that I won't object to you calling it Islamic but to me this is secular.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Secondly...   as for "Maulana" Jinnah...  I think we should respect Jinnah's own wishes as he himself asked people not to refer to him as Maulana ...   but then what Jinnah thought or believed in hardly matters, does it?&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This comment has been slightly edited to comply with UPP&#8217;s commenting guidelines. -Ed. </p>
<p>Dear Atif, </p>
<p>If you think the abovementioned vision is Islamic,  why not pursue it.  I have said so clearly that I won&#8217;t object to you calling it Islamic but to me this is secular.</p>
<p>Secondly&#8230;   as for &#8220;Maulana&#8221; Jinnah&#8230;  I think we should respect Jinnah&#8217;s own wishes as he himself asked people not to refer to him as Maulana &#8230;   but then what Jinnah thought or believed in hardly matters, does it?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: atif2</title>
		<link>http://www.understandingpakistan.com/index.php/azaadi-special-jinnah-vision-of-pakistan-yasser-latif-hamdani/#comment-1151</link>
		<author>atif2</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 10:34:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.understandingpakistan.com/index.php/azaadi-special-jinnah-vision-of-pakistan-yasser-latif-hamdani/#comment-1151</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Note: This post is slightly edited to ensure compliance with the comment guidelines for UPP. - Ed.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Author's thesis has been discredited successfully on www.chowk.com.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Pursuing secularism is a worthy cause. However, associating Jinnah with Secularism by quoting selecting quotes and hiding other aspects is inherently dishonest. Jinnah said different things to different people at different times. Reducing his 72 years worth of diverse life into EXACTLY one interpretation...the interpretation that suits your agenda, is akin to being divorced from reality. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;There is a reason by people of pakistan do not trust the "enlightened moderate" liberals and secularists - it is because these liberals lie through their teeth. This one sided article is a good example of that. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Following are the quotes that depict the OTHER side of Jinnah, the side that this biased author has conveniently whitewashed. From the quotes below Jinnah comes across as a nothing less than a leader who sees Pakistan as a theorcracy. Whether theocracy is good or bad is another debate, but lets not twist, turn and vandalize Jinnah's legacy to turn him into what he was not. Pasting a plethora of "minority rights" quotes of Jinnah does not negate the fact that he saw these minority rights guaranteed within the context of a sharia based Islamic State. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Secularists need to look for a better poster boy for their cause. Sharia preaching Maulana Jinnah is definitely not that person. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Following are Maulana Jinnah's quotes where he sees Islam not just in "personal" life of its citizens, but also in the "collective" life and covering "every department" of society. Nothing can be more clear than that. No further interpretation needed here. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Exhibit A&lt;br /&gt;
1- “Every Musalmaan, except those who are ignorant, knows that the Quran is the general code of the Muslims. A religious, social, civil, commercial, military, judicial, criminal, penal code, it regulates everything from the ceremonies of religion to those of daily life; from the salvation of the soul to the health of the body; from the rights of all to those of each individual; from morality to crime, from punishment here to that in the life to come. Therefore Islam is not merely confined to the spiritual tenets and doctrines or rituals and ceremonies. It is a complete code regulating the whole Muslim society, every department of life, collective[ly] and individually.”&lt;br /&gt;
- Jinnah , Eid message on September 1945&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Exhibit B&lt;br /&gt;
It is my belief that our salvation lies in following the golden rules of conduct set for us by our great lawgiver, the Prophet of Islam. Let us lay the foundations of our democracy on the basis of true Islamic ideals and principles&lt;br /&gt;
- Jinnah(Civil, Naval, Military and Air Force Officers at Khaliqdina Hall Karachi on 11th October 1947)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Exhibit C&lt;br /&gt;
What is it that keeps the Muslims united as one man, and what is the bedrock and sheet-anchor of the community. It is Islam. It is the Great Book, Quran, that is the sheet-anchor of Muslim India. I am sure that as we go on there will be more and more of oneness, one God, one Book, one Prophet and one Nation&lt;br /&gt;
- Jinnah (All-India Muslim League, Karachi on 26th December)&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note: This post is slightly edited to ensure compliance with the comment guidelines for UPP. - Ed.</p>
<p>Author&#8217;s thesis has been discredited successfully on <a href="http://www.chowk.com." rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/www.chowk.com.');">www.chowk.com.</a></p>
<p>Pursuing secularism is a worthy cause. However, associating Jinnah with Secularism by quoting selecting quotes and hiding other aspects is inherently dishonest. Jinnah said different things to different people at different times. Reducing his 72 years worth of diverse life into EXACTLY one interpretation&#8230;the interpretation that suits your agenda, is akin to being divorced from reality. </p>
<p>There is a reason by people of pakistan do not trust the &#8220;enlightened moderate&#8221; liberals and secularists - it is because these liberals lie through their teeth. This one sided article is a good example of that. </p>
<p>Following are the quotes that depict the OTHER side of Jinnah, the side that this biased author has conveniently whitewashed. From the quotes below Jinnah comes across as a nothing less than a leader who sees Pakistan as a theorcracy. Whether theocracy is good or bad is another debate, but lets not twist, turn and vandalize Jinnah&#8217;s legacy to turn him into what he was not. Pasting a plethora of &#8220;minority rights&#8221; quotes of Jinnah does not negate the fact that he saw these minority rights guaranteed within the context of a sharia based Islamic State. </p>
<p>Secularists need to look for a better poster boy for their cause. Sharia preaching Maulana Jinnah is definitely not that person. </p>
<p>Following are Maulana Jinnah&#8217;s quotes where he sees Islam not just in &#8220;personal&#8221; life of its citizens, but also in the &#8220;collective&#8221; life and covering &#8220;every department&#8221; of society. Nothing can be more clear than that. No further interpretation needed here. </p>
<p>Exhibit A<br />
1- “Every Musalmaan, except those who are ignorant, knows that the Quran is the general code of the Muslims. A religious, social, civil, commercial, military, judicial, criminal, penal code, it regulates everything from the ceremonies of religion to those of daily life; from the salvation of the soul to the health of the body; from the rights of all to those of each individual; from morality to crime, from punishment here to that in the life to come. Therefore Islam is not merely confined to the spiritual tenets and doctrines or rituals and ceremonies. It is a complete code regulating the whole Muslim society, every department of life, collective[ly] and individually.”<br />
- Jinnah , Eid message on September 1945</p>
<p>Exhibit B<br />
It is my belief that our salvation lies in following the golden rules of conduct set for us by our great lawgiver, the Prophet of Islam. Let us lay the foundations of our democracy on the basis of true Islamic ideals and principles<br />
- Jinnah(Civil, Naval, Military and Air Force Officers at Khaliqdina Hall Karachi on 11th October 1947)</p>
<p>Exhibit C<br />
What is it that keeps the Muslims united as one man, and what is the bedrock and sheet-anchor of the community. It is Islam. It is the Great Book, Quran, that is the sheet-anchor of Muslim India. I am sure that as we go on there will be more and more of oneness, one God, one Book, one Prophet and one Nation<br />
- Jinnah (All-India Muslim League, Karachi on 26th December)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
