In this context Jinnah got an approval rating of 97% in Pakistan and 43% in India.

Gandhi got an approval rating 29% in Pakistan and 85% in India.

Thank you for your comment. We understand and appreciate your viewpoint. However, it would be nice if you could support your assertions with actual data. Would be nice to if you could share your research on the subject. If it really stands the test of rigor, we’d even like to feature it on this website. UPP does not take a position this way or that way–although individuals writing on UPP may. So, we’re really open to any viewpoint as long as it is empirically justifiable and rigorous.

We’d be hoping to hear from you more.

-Editor.

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If Pakistan becomes a fundamentalist state, then the religious extremists deserve the success, because they feel that this is their country, and are giving big sacrifices to carve out the nation according to their vision. They are making extensive efforts by running free madrasas, training militants, writing books, magazines, newspapers, holding regular gatherings and rallies, distributing free audio tapes and leveraging modern methods such as internet to propagate their vision Feudal lords also believe that they own this country and are giving sacrifices to retain their control The criminals, corrupts and ‘gonda’ are also making intensive efforts and participating in the political process to achieve their objectives

The silent majority (the educated middle class) neither have any rights on Pakistan nor do they deserve anything. If they had any sense of belonging to Pakistan, then they would have also struggled like the others to make it habitable for them and their children. They are a silent spectator waiting for a new master

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NO country in the world has ever achieved progress or democracy without continuous authoritarian rule from an honest leadership. We should all get worried that once more we are tearing down our country, as we had done with Ayob & Bhutto. Why can’t we be like China, Malaysia, Singapore and other Asian giants, which may not have freedoms that we enjoy, but have respect around the world because they are rich, strong and civilized. The cost of enjoyment is that very harsh. We are extremely poor, most corrupt and have no respect in the community of nations. Sometime US president threatens us, some time India threatens us and now even Afghanistan.

The point is: If the freedom and democracy leads us towards a better future, then it is good. But I have seen that it is progressively taking us in our graves. Pakistan needs 25 years of continuous authoritarian rule like Malaysia.

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I think first we have to brainstorm that this is the solution. Then the next step would be how to achieve the desired solution. I would like to add that India is not a real democracy. Definition of democracy is ‘Of the People, By the People, For the People’. Just casting vote to select a PM is not democracy. Due to this they have same problems that we have i.e. corruption of civil service and judiciary, power cuts as bad as Pakistan, poverty worse than Pakistan etc. The export of Hong Kong is more than India. We started with zero economy, and they started with huge industrial base. Similarly they also have issues of Kashmir, Sikhistan, Nagaland, demolition of muslim shrines, terrorist attacks, suicide bombers etc. In fact our press is more free, and now it seems that our judiciary is also more independent than theirs. If any member would like more points comparing Indian democracy with our partial democracy, then I can provide these. In my earlier message perhaps I didn’t explain fully, which is; we need 25 years of stable authoritarian rule to implement democratic principles and institutionalize the practices i.e. to transition us into democracy, because no country in the world has been able to sucessfully transitioned without such burning in period.

Moreover, I feel that we have not given sufficient understanding to the Local Government System introduced by this government. This is an attempt to comply with the basic definition of democracy i.e. ‘Of the people, by the people and for the people’. About 25000 of middle class are involved in local government system, who are getting trained in the system. So this is the breeding ground for new leadership to replace 50 zamindar families who are ruling Pakistan for the last 60 year. This is just one of the benefit of the local government system. All strong democracies practice local government system. If local government system is not derailed and sabotaged, then it has the potential to put us on the right track.

With regard to U.S; as you must be aware, the recent past of U.S was cowboy culture, gang wars, mafia kidnappings etc. Edgar J. Hoover is considered to be the archirect of modern U.S, who was head of CIA for 42 years up until 1972, who eliminated all this with an IRON FIST. It is believed that the Kennedy brothers were killed on his instructions. Please read more about Edgar Hoover on the internet.

Ghulam Mohammed

Here is William Dalrymple writing in the Guardian on 14th August:

“On the ground, of course, the reality is different and first-time visitors to Pakistan are almost always surprised by the country’s visible prosperity.There is far less poverty on show in Pakistan than in India, fewer beggars, and much less desperation. In many ways the infrastructure of Pakistan is much more advanced: there are better roads and airports, and more reliable electricity. Middle-class Pakistani houses are often bigger and better appointed than their equivalents in India.

Moreover, the Pakistani economy is undergoing a construction and consumer boom similar to India’s, with growth rates of 7%, and what is currently the fastest-rising stock market in Asia. You can see the effects everywhere: in new shopping centres and restaurant complexes, in the hoardings for the latest laptops and iPods, in the cranes and building sites, in the endless stores selling mobile phones: in 2003 the country had fewer than three million cellphone users; today there are almost 50 million.“

Not even his political enemies ever accused Jinnah of corruption or self-seeking. He could be bought by no one, and for no price. Nor was he in the least degree a weather-cock, swinging in the wind of popularity of changing his politics to suit the chances of the times. He was a steadfast idealist as well as a man of scrupulous honour.

For all your claims about the elite, Pakistan’s single greatest achievement is the creation of a national bourgeoisie that had hitherto not existed in the regions that constitute Pakistan. In 1947 the regions that constitute Pakistan had less than 10 industrial units, 3% literacy and very few industrial workers. Today despite major setbacks the country has managed to create a respectable industrial class with global clout and our literacy rate has gone up from 3% to close to 52% that constitutes more than a 17 fold increase. And this we’ve done despite not having matched our potential which is enormous.

Why Pakistan has not reached its potential has very different and much more concrete reasons than abusing this man or that man…The Muslim bourgeoisie i.e. Salariat behind the creation of Pakistan belonged entirely to the Hindustan regions and had no real roots in indigenous Pakistan. Those who had roots in the regions of Punjab and Sindh etc were mostly feudals. Thus the feudals and the army in collusion with the civil bureaucracy found it really easy to over throw the bourgeoisie … in 1954 and then the army assumed command in 1958.

Why were feudals stronger in Punjab etc… had its roots in the British theory of Martial and Non-martial regions… whereby the British ruled Punjab with consensus of the feudals who were given a free rein … and the democratic and bourgeoisie institutions of Bengal and rest of India just did not take root here for a long time. How are you going to blame this on Jinnah or his party League which struggled as much against the Unionist Party in the 1940s as Congress had (against the Unionist Party) in the 1930s…

Pakistan thus was faced not just with general Muslim backwardness (because of their preference for either soldiery or farming) but also the fact that the regions that constituted Pakistan were industrially a half century behind the rest of India…. Pakistan’s creation in fact has provided that impetus and fire required to create a modern industrial economy and a bourgeoisie…

As for democracy in Pakistan… I think its time has now come and not even the greatest army can stop the march of an idea whose time has come.

So be holistic… don’t give me the occam’s razor. Nation states grow over time. Most nation states take from 200 to 300 years. Pakistan in comparison has done remarkably well despite enormous odds. Remember they predicted we would fall apart in 10 years…. 60 years later we are still going on…

Please note that I am not asking you agree with me. But I have the right to express my opinion and I would appreciate if you drop the air of false superiority you have about your ideas which to me frankly are not so as they inherently based on ignorance taught to you by a ZiaulHaq inspired vision of Pakistan which has nothing to do with Jinnah’s Pakistan or the idealism that created this great nation state.

On the contrary I was educated in an American school in Pakistan and then got my college education in the United States of America. As a youth in America at College I could have cared less about Pakistan and Pakistani identity, untill I ended up in my alma mater’s wonderful Alexandar Library of Rutgers University in New Jersey. There- at the hallowed hall of knowledge - I discovered Jinnah and Pakistan and the real intent behind making the country - an intent that was both noble and secular. That Jinnah was the one politician who was considered completely incorruptible … (you should read what Dr. B R Ambedkar wrote about the Quaid…. and B R Ambedkar was an indian statesman much greater in stature than any other in my opinion)… is an undeniable fact of history acknowledged by every one from Gandhi to Nehru.

Infact it was there in Alexandar Library that I began to discover just how painfully Jinnah struggled … for 30 years to bring Hindus and Muslims together as Indians and how terribly he failed in doing so. Pakistan was the outcome of that failure that Mr. Jinnah experienced as a minority who dared to think himself an Indian. In that failure ofcourse he towered above the successes of ordinary mortals.

What you don’t understand unfortunately is that neither you nor any Indian has any right to question someone else’s identity. I was born a Pakistani… I am not much of a religious Muslim in the orthodox sense… but I do care about my Pakistani identity which is paramount for me. Unloading your pathetic Australian identity problems on me is unfair. I am not an Australian and I am not Indian. I was born and raised a Pakistani and that is what matters. It is my god given right which is protected by the UN Human Rights charter to have a national identity of my choosing. Since all identities are imagined you DON’T have the locus standi to tell me what I am or am not.

Coming back to partition …. perhaps you ought to read Indian lawyer H M Seervai’s Partition of India Legend and Reality to see just how much Jinnah tried to keep India united even at the last moment and how Jinnah alone was driven by a sense of fairness, justice and fairplay.

Now coming to your hang-ups about the two nation theory…. the two nation theory never sought to demonise the Hindus. It was an attempt at bringing about a negotiated settlement in United India and sought create a consociationalist solution to the complex problem. If Jinnah resorted to two nation theory… it was not out of malice for the Hindus… but because of all his attempts had already failed.

And finally to me being Pakistani does not mean that India is the enemy and Hindus are evil. Here since you’ve confessed to having these feelings, please note that your mindset was NEVER the same as mine. You operated on an exclusivist mindset that was the product of Zia-ul-Haq’s Islamisation and had nothing to do with Jinnah’s Pakistan. I am the votary of Jinnah’s Pakistan … proud of my country and my nation… and yet without any malice or hatred for the Indians or Hindus except those who harbor similar malice towards me. So on this count your argument falls flat on its face yet again.

While in Pakistan you think the way you are thinking. You read things to justify your beliefs or mould it to satisfy your predominant beliefs. And this is what you are proving above. And you are not alone its like this. Including me until i was able to break free and started to take a close rational look.

You cant deny the fact that you have Indian Roots. Your parents and grandparents were indians. Same as mine. I am Australian now but called Pakistani Australian because of my roots people think here trace back to Pakistan. So that makes you Pakistani Indian.

Jinnah a very wise man if he was, should be able to foresee what could be happening if the partition went ahead. Getting an elite group along with him to rule the country and then hoping this elite group would bring an equality to every one in the country was just plain crap. Jinnah was the intelligent man so he knew this all the way through. You cant say he was tricked by mountbatten or tricked by other members of the party.

Again the very basic idea of partition which has its roots in Two Nation Theory was wrong. Jinnah being the wise person and secular himself should have advocated against it. He should have fought to death not to go ahead with the Partition and bring the unity. Just getting the title of best ambassador of hindu muslims unity was not enough. This shows how diplomatic he was. And that makes it really shrewed and cunning person.

Partition divided the muslims numbers and strengths. If Pakistan was for Muslims why there are muslims numbers more in India than in Pakistan now. THe forming of east Pakistan and West Pakistan was geographically absurdity which had its effect when it seperated and formed Bangladesh.

Muslim population in subcontinent now is about 500 million. 170 million Pakistan and almost samein India and Bangladesh thats make it 500 million. Hindu population is about 800 million. With 500 million Muslims are no minority. But in present India with 200 million against 800million definitely cant be considered majority.

By considering Hindus a totally alien nation was the biggest blow to the Islamic belief and that would have stopped the conversion of people from Hindu from becoming Muslim. Dont forget it was a Hindu region and all muslims that you say now are muslims are converts. How can you accept someone to convert into Islam or becoming muslim if you first develop hatred against them and tell them you are dirty , you dont desrve to live with us. Make sense?

If i miss the substance of the issue you are missing very basic anthropologic issue. It takes centuries over centuries for a certain region and its people to come to an equilibrium and determine/form what is called Culture. Disturbing that equilibrium will result in enormous consequences. And then in such disturbances some people become zero from hero and some become hero from zero. Partition distrubed that equilibrium and (as you said above) you and people like you become hero from nothing. If this disturbance bring good to every one it should be welcome but if this disturbance just bring a win loose solution it should not have been accepted.

Jinnah would have been a hero had he fought till his death to keep the country together.

Again by saying you are proud of your identity doesnt really make your proud or does it? Show me what you have achieved being a Pakistani? If somehow you happen to be belonging to elite group (feudals, armed forces etc) pakistan is heaven for you. As an ordinary pakistani do tell me what you have achieved that makes you proud of your identity? Acknowledge your true roots that might give you something to proud of.

You couldnt care less thats not a problem, all jubiliant hotblooded youth in Pakistan is doing this but some one has to shake your beliefs hard enough so that you pull your head out of sand one day.

regards

The reason why violence happened at partition was not because of the Pakistan demand but because of Mountbatten’s insistence on partitioning Punjab and Bengal against Jinnah’s wishes and the failure of the British government to deploy the boundary force.Furthermore.. how was Kashmir problem created?

To continuously question our identity… sixty years later…when all nation states are formed out of conflict is indicative of a mindset unwilling to accept realities and let people be.

I am very proud of my Pakistani identity because I was born a Pakistani- India was to me a foreign country and I could care less what hang ups you carry… whether people like you like it or not.

At the expense of all those who got displace/murdered?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/629/629/6922293.stm

“Partition left 10 million people uprooted and more than half a million Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus dead in riots and massacres.

Sixty years on, the status of Kashmir remains unresolved despite a tenuous peace process between India and Pakistan, following three wars. Communal unrest continues to surface from time to time in both countries. The good news is that the economies are growing, especially in India.”

The foundations of your success is built on the blood of others and which is still spilling over? Many people are still paying the price. Does this make you proud of your identity?